<article_title>Brain</article_title>
<edit_user>Willtron</edit_user>
<edit_time>Tuesday, November 24, 2009 8:52:53 PM CET</edit_time>
<edit_comment>+an</edit_comment>
<edit_text>af:Brein
<strong>[[an:Zerebro]]
</strong>ar:دماغ az:Beyin</edit_text>
<turn_user>Gilisa<turn_user>
<turn_time>Tuesday, November 24, 2009 3:54:13 PM CET</turn_time>
<turn_topicname>Opening photo</turn_topicname>
<turn_topictext>Why not to replace the chimp's brain photo with a human one? The chimp's one is too shocking to my opinion.--Gilisa (talk) 08:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC) Because that would belong nicely on the human brain page. Personally I don't find a photo of either shocking, but why is a chimp's brain more shocking than a human one? GyroMagician (talk) 14:46, 22 November 2009 (UTC) Because it didn't contribute it willingly to science, you can guess how it was taken out.--Gilisa (talk) 08:28, 23 November 2009 (UTC) I see. I don't really want to get into a discussion of the ethics of animal testing (as talk pages are not meant as general discussion pages), but if we are to remove the brain image, we should also remove most of the detail from this article for the same reason. I think removing the image while using results based heavily on animal-based studies would be dishonest, no? GyroMagician (talk) 10:23, 23 November 2009 (UTC) You made a point. But the fact is that the article focus is on human brain (i.e., the large part is on human brain), right? I think that human brain would not only better fit to the article (and it's not the first reason for which I posted here) but it would also be of better taste (and while we have no good alternative to animal models, we do have good alternatives to this photo..). You don't must agree on it, it's just a proposal. Best--Gilisa (talk) 10:38, 23 November 2009 (UTC) But it doesn't focus on the human brain - as stated in the first line of the article, which points readers to the human brain page, if that is what they're looking for. This article tries very hard to be as general as possible, covering insects to humans. GyroMagician (talk) 11:14, 23 November 2009 (UTC) I believe the opening photo is a very interesting one, aesthethically (from my point of view) is much better than most pictures depicting a brain, and the fact that it is from a chimpanze for me is a plus: The truth is that most of what we know is thanks to animal experimentation. I would leave as it is now.--Garrondo (talk) 11:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC) Much of the knowledge come from animal experiments -however, much come from humans as well (including single cel recordings in vivo and in vitro). As for non human primate models-most research is on Macaque monlies, whose brain is not very aesthethic, if the reason is experimental importance we should use rat or cat or Macaque brain. If it's aesthethics we should human or dolphin brain.--Gilisa (talk) 11:50, 23 November 2009 (UTC) I don't really mind what sort of brain it is, except human, for the reasons described above. I also think it is important not to shy away from showing an animal brain, as most of our knowledge comes from animal experiments. Beyond that, cat/rat/macaque - all are fine. But I agree with Garrondo that the chimp brain is aesthetically a very good image. I don't see any reason to change it, unless you have something better. GyroMagician (talk) 12:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)I agree with GyroMagician and Garrondo. I think that a reader coming to a page about "brain" would reasonably expect to find an image of a brain, and not be upset by it, and this image is not particularly graphic as these things go. In fact, I think the way it appears, in an old-fashioned museum-style display, makes it look a bit historical, thereby mitigating the impression that current science might have done something lurid. (Personally, I think the graphic image problem is currently much worse at pages about the animal rights movement and groups that belong to it.) --Tryptofish (talk) 14:30, 23 November 2009 (UTC) Let me just add a note that the existing image was the result of a back-and-forth during the last FA review. I don't really have strong feelings about it; it's hard to find a better picture in Commons. What I would really like is to have a picture like http://blogs.discovery.com/.a/6a00d8341bf67c53ef01156f11aa28970c-500wi -- the article did once upon a time, but it was deleted due to licensing concerns. Looie496 (talk) 17:07, 23 November 2009 (UTC) Now that's a cool picture! GyroMagician (talk) 17:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC) Now, that's a much better photo (and apparently present at any neuroscience lab I seen), if we just can get it (or similar) licenced I guess that it could make a good alternative. Anyway, aesthethicly the picture we have now (which I suggested to replace) is very beautiful, no argue on that.--Gilisa (talk) 09:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)That is a great image, but even if it was correctly licensed I think I would use it in the mammals subsection of the macroscopic structure section. Lead images from my point of view have to be catching more than informative, and the one we have probably is.--Garrondo (talk) 09:33, 24 November 2009 (UTC) OK.--Gilisa (talk) 15:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)</turn_topictext>
<turn_text>OK.</turn_text>