<article_title>Brain</article_title>
<edit_user>Citation bot 1</edit_user>
<edit_time>Thursday, July 15, 2010 3:30:00 AM CEST</edit_time>
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<edit_text>| isbn = 9780262541855
<strong>| coauthors = Dayan P
</strong>}}&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;cite id=&quot;refAboitiz&quot;&gt;{{cite journal</edit_text>
<turn_user>Tryptofish<turn_user>
<turn_time>Thursday, July 15, 2010 2:35:57 PM CEST</turn_time>
<turn_topicname>Schwann cells do not exist in the brain</turn_topicname>
<turn_topictext>In the Brain article under "Microscopic Structure" there is an illustration showing Schwann cells as the cells forming myelin along the axons. As I understand, in the brain, it's oligodendrocytes that form the myelin. Schwann cells are the glia that form the myelin for the rest of the body. If this is correct, I wonder if this illustration might be deleted and/or changed? Tigers2B14.226.156.205 (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC) font-size: smaller;autosigned—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.226.156.205 (talk) 16:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC) Second that. "http://books.google.com.au/books?id=78otVBotQjYC&amp;pg=PA52-IA3&amp;lpg=PA52-IA3&amp;dq=%22unlike+peripheral+nerves,+they+have+no+Schwann+cells+to+guide+and+support+them%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=NSix5nuNWe&amp;sig=ngIttaGhNgPh3oIkdkk_-UT6egc&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=i7g0TN3DEo-TkAX4iumhDA&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=1&amp;ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&amp;q=%22unlike%20peripheral%20nerves%2C%20they%20have%20no%20Schwann%20cells%20to%20guide%20and%20support%20them%22&amp;f=false" Anthony (talk) 17:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC) Yeah, this has come up before. It would be a shame to delete the image (actually an image map), but changing it would make other articles that use it inaccurate. Maybe the right solution is to make a second "brain neuron" template that substitutes oligodendrocyte for Schwann cell. That would be pretty easy to do. Looie496 (talk) 17:37, 7 July 2010 (UTC) Do you know how to do it Looie496? I'm hopeless at this stuff. Or is there some project full of helpful image editors? I encountered this guy the other day who obviously has the ability but I've already extracted one favor. Anthony (talk) 17:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC) Yes, I can do it in a couple of minutes. I hold back only because I generally don't like duplicating things to make small changes, but if we agree that's what we want, I'll be happy to do it. Looie496 (talk) 18:38, 7 July 2010 (UTC)We agree. Anthony (talk) 18:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC) Nuts -- I created Template:Brain neuron map, but then I remembered the real problem, which is that those cells actually don't look like oligos. An oligo has its cell body away from the axon and generates multiple myelin sheaths that arise from filaments. Not sure what to do about that now. Looie496 (talk) 19:47, 7 July 2010 (UTC) I've left a request http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Graphic_Lab/Illustration_workshop#Oligodendrocyte_image_needed Maybe someone there will be able to concoct something for us. Meanwhile, should we delete that Schwann cell illustration from the article? Anthony (talk) 08:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC) File:Neuron with oligodendrocyte and myelin sheath.svg Andrew c has kindly adapted a Schwann cell/myelin sheath image for us here. I think he needs to erase both instances of "(Schwann cell)""Nucleus", andthe little yellow Schwann cell soma leaving everything else, including "Myelin Sheath". Anything else? Anthony (talk) 10:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC) Thanks Anthony for getting this underway. I agree with you that this is an improvement. I also agree about deleting "Schwann cell". I don't really care either way about the nucleus, and that nucleus is the only thing I see that is yellow. However, I would add another point: the oligodendrocyte (now magenta) should be the same blue color as the myelin, since that is the cell from which the myelin extends. I'll make a comment there myself; I hope you don't mind. Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC) Agreed about the color. Anthony (talk) 18:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC) Woops, I was wrong and you were right about the yellow. The nuclei are in the cell body, not in multiples in each myelin wrap. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC) Is that picture alright up there while we discuss it? Anthony (talk) 19:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC) I'd like to see the cell body too. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Complete_neuron_cell_diagram_en.svg is the image Andrew is working off. Should we ask him to include the cell body? Anthony (talk) 19:58, 13 July 2010 (UTC) Hmm, I'm not sure. The image on the page now does emphasize the neuron, rather than the myelinated axon. I guess it depends on what we want to emphasize. There would be questions as to how much nuclear detail to include, and also, about how much to show of the axon terminal and synapse at the other end. If we do go that way, we might want to omit the pale gray neurons in the background. Alternatively, we might use the picture the way it is, along with one or more other images for the other parts. Do we already have a good image of the cell body? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC) I was thinking: the changes Andrew and Narayanese (see below) have made; the changes we have proposed; and include the cell body. That gives us a complete CNS neuron. Anthony (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2010 (UTC) File:Complete neuron cell diagram en.svg Above is LadyofHats' original that Andrew and Narayanese are working from File:Neuron with oligodendrocyte and myelin sheath-2.svg Above is Narayanese's version I changed it a bit (:File:Neuron with oligodendrocyte and myelin sheath-2.svg). It's hard to enough 'arms' for the oligodendrocyte. Narayanese (talk) 22:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC) Thank you! Anthony (talk) 22:32, 13 July 2010 (UTC) Yes, thanks! I think I like this version too. I'm not sure, however, how much detail we need about the intracellular organelles. I think a case can be made that it would be helpful to make it less busy, and many of the organelles are not neuron-specific. Also, as per earlier discussion, we would have to get rid of "Schwann cells", perhaps just changing them to "Oligodendrocyte". --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)It is busy. We can do without the synapse inset; and most of the detail in the cell body probably doesn't need labeling. I like Narayanese's color change, but I'd prefer the oligodendtocyte to be more obviously wrapped around the neuron's axon - though that is plain from the inset, I guess. Anthony (talk) 06:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC) File:Neuron with oligodendrocyte and myelin sheath-3.svg I know you told me to wait for further discussion, but I couldn't help myself. I took a number of suggestions into consideration, and made alterations to my first draft, such as color, labels, cropping, and making the sheath look like it is wrapping more. -Andrew&amp;c&amp;[talk] 17:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC) Nice. Thank you Andrew c. We're still waiting for a couple of other editors to chime in. This is such an improvement. Anthony (talk) 17:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)Yes, I like it too. I'm still not sure what to think about the neuron cell body in the version above that shows it. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:35, 14 July 2010 (UTC)Actually, responding to my own question!, the section of the page this would illustrate is really mostly about the interaction between neurons and glia, rather than about the fine structure of neurons themselves. That being the case, it might be best to use Andrew's newest version, appropriately captioned, and not include the neuronal soma in the image. In addition, if we want to better illustrate neuronal shapes, we could use something like :File:Pyramidal hippocampal neuron 40x.jpg or :File:Mouse cingulate cortex neurons.jpg. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC)I'm inclining to your view. Would really like to hear Looie496's thoughts before we settle, though. Anthony (talk) 07:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)Yes, absolutely, I'd want to hear from him too. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:35, 15 July 2010 (UTC)Should we go ahead now? Are you OK with Andrew's last version? I'd like to see the little yellow nuclei in each myelen sheath gone, as per Narayanese's version, and the red strands in the bottom left corner are a bit disracting. Any thoughts about a caption? Anthony (talk) 15:51, 17 July 2010 (UTC)Yes, I would say go for it! I agree exactly with the corrections you described here, and with that, it should be fine. And thanks so much to both Andrew and Narayanese!! As for captioning, it should (of course) replace the image currently in the "Microscopic structure" section, and should be formatted as a thumbnail, as it is, without any text at the top, unlike the top-labeling of the image that is there now. We can work on the thumbnail caption when it's on the page, but I would think it would be something like "Oligodendrocytes are glial cells that form myelin sheaths around the axons of brain neurons." or something like that. I'd be happy to add a second image from among the two I listed just above—any preferences between them? --Tryptofish (talk) 17:24, 17 July 2010 (UTC)I've passed that to the illustration workshop. And I think I prefer the hippocampal neuron, but either is fine with me. Anthony (talk) 21:06, 17 July 2010 (UTC)All good! Thanks! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2010 (UTC) I've made the few minor edits mentioned above (sorry I didn't do it sooner, was out of town). If this is a final version that users are going to use, I can move it to a different filename if you want on Commons. -Andrew&amp;c&amp;[talk] 15:18, 22 July 2010 (UTC) I've http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Graphic_Lab/Illustration_workshop&amp;diff=374881646&amp;oldid=374881179 to choose an appropriate file name and let us know here. Anthony (talk) 17:13, 22 July 2010 (UTC)I enthusiastically second what Anthony said at the Graphics Lab page: brilliant! When we get that image on this page, it will really be an outstanding improvement. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC):File:Neuron with oligodendrocyte and myelin sheath.svg is the file name, I just merged my drafts together into one location. I just realized now, that's going to mess up the discussion above a little bit, but hopefully that isn't an issue. I thought the first file name was descriptive and adequate. Hope you do as well. Any more concerns or changes, feel free to contact me. -Andrew&amp;c&amp;[talk] 21:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC) I've added it to the page. Thanks everyone! --Tryptofish (talk) 15:38, 23 July 2010 (UTC)</turn_topictext>
<turn_text>Yes, absolutely, I'd want to hear from him too. </turn_text>