<article_title>Intel_8086</article_title>
<edit_user>Wtshymanski</edit_user>
<edit_time>Monday, December 20, 2010 4:11:57 PM CET</edit_time>
<edit_comment>try again.</edit_comment>
<edit_text><strong><strike>''Execution times&amp;lt;ref&amp;gt;''Taken from the [[MASM]] 5.0 reference manual; numbers were also included in early 8086 and 8088 datasheets.''&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; for typical instructions, in clock cycles:''
</strike></strong><strong>''Execution times{{Citation needed|date=November 2010}} for typical instructions, in clock cycles:''
</strong>&quot;wikitable&quot;&quot;text-align:bottom&quot;border-bottom:</edit_text>
<turn_user>Wtshymanski<turn_user>
<turn_time>Tuesday, December 21, 2010 3:29:49 PM CET</turn_time>
<turn_topicname>What a valid citation looks like</turn_topicname>
<turn_topictext>Moved from user talk page...article discussions belong on article talk pages May I ask you again What is wrong with a data sheet or a masm manual as a ref? Can you get a better source? I don't get it! What are you trying to say? "Only the web exist" or something? 83.255.38.96 (talk) 06:08, 3 November 2010 (UTC) The problem is that "You could look it up somewhere" isn't a valid reference style and tells the reader nothing about where to find a specific relevant description of the instruction timing cycles. Find a book with a publisher and an ISBN, and a page number for a table of instruction cycle times. I'd cite my Intel data book if I could, but right now it's stored away and I won't have it unpacked for weeks. Telling the reader to "look it up in some manual you've never heard of" is lazy and very nearly insulting to the reader, who probably is familiar with the idea of finding relevant literature anyway and doesn't need some patronizing Wikieditor to tell him the bleeding obvious. This is NOT a difficult fact to cite, there must have been at least 3 books printed in the history of the world that actually list instruction cycle timing for the 8086 and all we need is ONE ISBN/author/publisher/date/page number citation to validate this table. --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)Taken from the MASM 5.0 reference manual; numbers were also included in early 8086 and 8088 datasheets. That's a pretty poor citation. Does this golden manual have a publisher, a date, you know, stuff like that? Perhaps even an ISBN? Any specific datasheets in mind? Publisher, date, etc. ? --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC) Still not a citation. Go to the front page of whatever manual you're looking at, and copy down here the name of the editor or author, the full name of the manual, it's edition number if any, the copyright date, the publisher, the ISBN if it has one, and the pages on which these numbers allegedly appear. Can you do that for us? Hmm? --Wtshymanski (talk) 13:01, 21 December 2010 (UTC)There. Was that so hard? Now when a vandal comes along and randomizes all those cycle timing numbers (if that hasn't happened already), someone can compare with *his* copy of the Microsoft MASM Manual 5th Edition and make the numbers consistent with the reference again. Page numbers are still needed. Its important to say *which* manufacturer's data sheets you're talknig about, too. Does an AMD part or Hitachi part have the same cycle count as the Intel part? As long as we say *which* manufacturer we're talking about, we're ok. --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:29, 21 December 2010 (UTC) Of course it is about the original Intel part if nothing else is said (see the name of the article). I gave a perfectly fine reference in April this year, although I typed in those numbers many years ago. I have never claimed it to be a citation; citations are for controversial statements, not for plain numerical data from a datasheet. The MASM 5.0 reference manual was certainly uniquely identifiable as it stood, and it would really surprise me if more than a few promille of all the material on WP has equally good (i.e. serious and reliable) references. Consequently, with your logic, you better put a tag on just about every single statement on WP...!? 83.255.43.80 (talk) 13:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC) If it was important enough for you to add it to the article, it was important enough to have a proper citation. Never say "of course" in an encyclopedia. How do we know the MASM manual is talking about the same part, stepping level, etc. ? Call up your local public library and ask them for "the MASM reference manual, you know, like, 5.0 ? " and see how far you get with just that. Real encyclopedias don't need so many references because real encyclopedias have an editorial board and paid fact checkers. Wikipedia relies on citations because we don't trust our editors to get anything right and so we rely on multiple persons to review any contributions. Wikipedia is sadly lacking in citations. Any numerical data should have a citation so that vandalism can be detected and reverted; you may have noticed once or twice an anon IP will change a single digit in a value and scurry off back under a rock, leaving a permanent error in the encyclopedia because no-one can find the original reference from whence the data came. It's too bad you were inconvenienced with backing up a statement of fact...let's take all the references out of Wikipedia and rely on our anonymous editors to keep the tables right. --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:38, 22 December 2010 (UTC) Any distance or perspective? Wikipedia is not supposed to be some kind of legal document, it's a free encyclopedia. Also, I find it peculiar how extremely concerned you seem to be with "vandals" when it was yourself that actually messed up the table – putting JMP and Jcc timings in N.A. columns. I corrected that (20 dec 11.01) and put that (damn) reference back. However, you kept on deleting that information, over and over. That style makes me sick and tired just by thinking of contributing any further to Wikipedia (and don't you call me "any slacker"). 83.255.43.80 (talk) 20:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)You don't get it, do you? I would never confuse this stunning display of erudite scholarship with that of a slacker. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)Looking at the Intel Component Data Catalog, 1980 edition, bearing Intel publication number AFN-01300A-1, which includes 8086/8086-2/8086-4 16-Bit HMOS Microprocessor data sheet, there's no listing of instruction cycle times for each opcode. Until a data sheet listing instruction cycle times can be found, I'm deleting the vague description since Intel itself doesn't seem to have published instruction cycles in their own data sheet. --Wtshymanski (talk) 06:07, 2 January 2011 (UTC) The document we really want to cite is Intel 8086 family user's manual,October 1979, publication number 9800722-03. The bootleg copy on the Web gives instruction timing cycles in Table 2-21, pages 2-51 through 2-68 (starting in the non-OCR .pdf at page 66). The summary in this article leaves out a lot of details. --Wtshymanski (talk) 06:39, 2 January 2011 (UTC)</turn_topictext>
<turn_text>There. Was that so hard? Now when a vandal comes along and randomizes all those cycle timing numbers (if that hasn't happened already), someone can compare with *his* copy of the Microsoft MASM Manual 5th Edition and make the numbers consistent with the reference again. Page numbers are still needed. Its important to say *which* manufacturer's data sheets you're talknig about, too. Does an AMD part or Hitachi part have the same cycle count as the Intel part? As long as we say *which* manufacturer we're talking about, we're ok. </turn_text>