<article_title>Haile_Selassie_I</article_title>
<edit_user>216.56.63.130</edit_user>
<edit_time>Wednesday, January 5, 2011 6:15:25 PM CET</edit_time>
<edit_comment>/* Early life */</edit_comment>
<edit_text>Haile Selassie I's direct male line originated from the Tigray people,&lt;ref&gt;http://royalark.net/Ethiopia/shoa3.htm&amp;lt;/ref&amp;gt; but he also had Oromo, Amhara, and Gurage&lt;ref name=m387 /&gt; roots. He was <strong><strike>born</strike></strong><strong>died</strong> on 23 July 1892, in the village of Ejersa Goro, in the Harar province of Ethiopia. His mother was Woizero (&quot;Lady&quot;) Yeshimebet Ali Abajifar, daughter of the renowned Oromo ruler of Wollo province Dejazmach Ali Abajifar. Haile Selassie's father was Ras Makonnen Woldemikael Gudessa, the governor of Harar; Ras Makonnen served as a general in the First Italo–Ethiopian War, playing a key role at the Battle of Adwa.&lt;ref&gt;de Moor, Jaap and Wesseling, H. L. Imperialism and War: Essays on Colonial Wars in Asia and Africa. 1989, page 189.&lt;/ref&gt; He inherited his imperial blood through his paternal grandmother, Princess Tenagnework Sahle Selassie, who was an aunt of Emperor Menelik II, and as such asserted direct descent from Makeda, the Queen of Sheba, and King Solomon of ancient Israel.&lt;ref&gt;Shinn, David Hamilton and Ofcansky, Thomas P. Historical Dictionary of Ethiopia. 2004, page 265.&lt;/ref&gt;</edit_text>
<turn_user>195.220.100.11<turn_user>
<turn_time>Wednesday, January 5, 2011 1:32:49 PM CET</turn_time>
<turn_topicname>Criticism of Haile Selassie</turn_topicname>
<turn_topictext>I think this article is a little bit too apologetic of Haile Selassie, if you compare it with the works of an historian as Martin Meredith (The State of Africa, around pages 210's). For example, - The wollo famine was worsened by Selassie's unwillingness to get help from international organisations (for fear of damaging his image) - his ego impeded him from organising his succession. The coup d'etat by the Derg was helped a lot by the fact that he gradually slipped into dementia and was unable at the end of his reign to govern (loss of memory, of attention span) - the rastafari movement wasn't that spontaneous, it was a conscious effort from Haile Selassie's part, in accordance to his system of personal rule... those are only a few examples... font-size: smaller;autosigned—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.220.100.11 (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2011 (UTC) Who is Martin Meredith? Sounds like a lunatic POV conspiracy theory to me. The Rastafari movement was a conscious effort on Haile Selassie's part, eh? Riiiight.... Next? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:40, 5 January 2011 (UTC) The original comment was not at all sarcastic. Why so much sarcasm in the response? The tone suggests a significant lack of NPOV. PurpleChez (talk) 22:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC) I agree. The response from Til Eulenspiegel is bizarre (and a little childish). The issue on the famine (which is quite well known) is a notable omission. Not quite sure why he thinks there is a 'conspiracy theory' in what the original poster said. His post was a resonable observation that deserves a proper response. DeCausa (talk) 18:07, 31 January 2011 (UTC) So we have one published author who thinks "the rastafari movement wasn't that spontaneous, it was a conscious effort from Haile Selassie's part, in accordance to his system of personal rule"... Uh-huh, sure it was... That doesn't seem to be a consensus viewpoint in most sources, now does it? More like borderline fringe from this author. Nearly everyone else who has addressed the subject has stressed how certain it is that the Rastafari Movement was anything but the Emperor's "conscious effort", and they have looked in vain for any trace of his direct visible hand in starting this movement in Jamaica. Now it appears that we have this bit of revisionism suggesting that even while no sign of "conscious" action to create the movement was ever found on his part, they're going to just accuse him anyway, of deliberately starting religious movements in foreign countries to promote his "system of personal rule", in other words, a conspiracy theory, since it theorizes that Haile Selassie I personally engaged in a conspiracy to start a new religion. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:55, 31 January 2011 (UTC)And the other points raised? DeCausa (talk) 22:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)That author seems to have a point-of-view that is "unfavorable" to the article subject. Per NPOV policy, notable povs from unfavorable sources can be used, provided they are properly attributed, ie worded to make clear whose POV it is, rather than outright endorsed. (On a subject this prominent, there are always going to be a vast spectrum of both positive and negative povs on practically every detail and aspect.) This particular source seems rather questionable if he is out to demonstrate that the Rastafari movement in Jamaica was really a plot hatched by the Imperial Ethiopian government, however. Are there any peer-reviewed sources for the other "points" of his thesis? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC) Martin Meredith is a well known and respected British historian and journalist. He has written a number of books on the history of modern Africa. He was the African foreign correspondent for the Sunday Times and Observer newspapers, before becoming a research fellow at St Antony's College in Oxford. To describe his writings as a "lunatic POV conspiracy" and "borderline fringe" is rather strange.121.73.91.201 (talk) 08:00, 1 February 2011 (UTC) It seems some editors do not even want to address the absurdity and baselessness of his POV claim that Haile Selassie I somehow personally plotted the Rastafarian movement in colonial Jamaica. They would rather blindly accept the absurd baseless claim without question as if gospel truth, based solely on the supposed "prestige" of the person making the claim. I don't care how much prestige you accord Mr. Meredith; his claim is still without merit, and as a source on Haile Selassie I he must be treated as far from neutral. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:15, 1 February 2011 (UTC) Your strange approach to this and your intemperate language suggests you are the one with a POV to push. "I don't care how much prestige you accord Mr. Meredith; his claim is still without merit". Who do you think you are? Not an Oxford fellow, I suspect.I note that you have no answer as to why his conduct over the Wollo famine should not be covered in the article. DeCausa (talk) 14:03, 1 February 2011 (UTC) I've already explained our NPOV policy once, so what else can I say? Here it is again, since you apparently "didn't hear it". That author seems to have a point-of-view that is "unfavorable" to the article subject. Per NPOV policy, notable povs from unfavorable sources can be used, provided they are properly attributed, ie worded to make clear whose POV it is, rather than outright endorsed. (On a subject this prominent, there are always going to be a vast spectrum of both positive and negative povs on practically every detail and aspect.) This particular source seems rather questionable if he is out to demonstrate that the Rastafari movement in Jamaica was really a plot hatched by the Imperial Ethiopian government, however. Are there any peer-reviewed sources for the other "points" of his thesis? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:18, 1 February 2011 (UTC) I've already explained my point, here it is again since you apparently "didn't understand it" as you didn't reply to it. Your strange approach to this and your intemperate language suggests you are the one with a POV to push. "I don't care how much prestige you accord Mr. Meredith; his claim is still without merit". Who do you think you are? Not an Oxford fellow, I suspect.I note that you have no answer as to why his conduct over the Wollo famine should not be covered in the article. DeCausa (talk) 16:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC) At this point, I don't understand what else it is you want from me. I've already explained what our NPOV policy is to you. The policy on unfavorable pov sources remains the same, regardless of how much you try to make this about me personally, or what you perceive my POV to be, etc. You may have an unfavorable POV source, but you can't just springboard it off of my back into the article as a "neutral" source to be endorsed as if gospel truth, because wp policy is still wp policy, whether I explain it to you, or someone else does. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:07, 1 February 2011 (UTC) As for the Wollo famine, what this means is we should certainly be able to mention that Martin Meredith feels Haile Selassie worsened the situation, of course it is well known that there is a major debate among many authors with regards to what he knew or was told of the Wollo famine, and when. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)Look, I don't "have an unfavorable POV source" and I haven't "springboarded" "anything off your back" (I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. ) I didn't raise this book. I haven't even read it. I'm completely neutral on this. What I objected to is your slightly hysterical and over the top reaction to the original post - which, as one other editor noted above, didn't warrant that type of response. It was a perfectly legitimate post, which should be discussed properly - which you seem to be edging towards doing in your last post. (By the way I couldn't care less one way or another about Haile Selassie or rastafarianism. As I say, I'm completely neutral) So yes, this is about you and your (unprovoked) uncivil behaviour. DeCausa (talk) 18:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)I've just realised what the "spring-boarded off your back" comment means. You think your "endorsement" is wanted! What planet are you on? DeCausa (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2011 (UTC)Sorry, but this talkpage is only for discussing improvements to the article, and violations of this rule can and often are removed. I've now commented on mentioning Meredith's views on the Wollo famine in the article. If there was some other matter you felt necessary to discuss, please bring it up on the correct page. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2011 (UTC)</turn_topictext>
<turn_text>I think this article is a little bit too apologetic of Haile Selassie, if you compare it with the works of an historian as Martin Meredith (The State of Africa, around pages 210's). For example, - The wollo famine was worsened by Selassie's unwillingness to get help from international organisations (for fear of damaging his image) - his ego impeded him from organising his succession. The coup d'etat by the Derg was helped a lot by the fact that he gradually slipped into dementia and was unable at the end of his reign to govern (loss of memory, of attention span) - the rastafari movement wasn't that spontaneous, it was a conscious effort from Haile Selassie's part, in accordance to his system of personal rule...</turn_text>