<article_title>Aspirin</article_title>
<edit_user>Pmanderson</edit_user>
<edit_time>Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:16:20 AM CET</edit_time>
<edit_comment>Let's have a source that trademark law is in fact prevailing against convenience and idiom</edit_comment>
<edit_text>In countries where Aspirin is a registered trademark owned by Bayer, the generic term is &quot;ASA.&quot;<strong>{{cn}}</strong></edit_text>
<turn_user>Colin<turn_user>
<turn_time>Wednesday, November 5, 2008 6:01:34 PM CET</turn_time>
<turn_topicname>Straw poll</turn_topicname>
<turn_topictext>The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. color:redPlease do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. The result of the proposal was no move. JPG-GR (talk) 06:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC) This is a straw poll to determine if the Aspirin article should be renamed acetylsalicylic acid with Aspirin redirected to the new name. The reason is because Aspirin is a registered trademark owned by Bayer in most of the world. Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC) For--because of the reason stated above. Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC) For -- for all the reasons I expressed under Talk:Aspirin#Aspirin_the_trademark. I also suggest including " (ASA)" as a suffix to page name. Enquire (talk) 09:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Opposed, per WP:COMMONNAME. Did anyone ever walk into a pharmacy and ask for "acetylsalicylic acid"? 128.232.1.193 (talk) 16:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)I copied the above comment here from WP:Requested moves.--Aervanath lives in greenthe Orphanage 17:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)They ask for "A.S.A." which is also the generic term used in Canada. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:54, 5 November 2008 (UTC)It depends on where you live. Unless you live in the UK or USA, Asprin™ (Bayer) will be more expensive. So you will commonly hear requests for "ASA" or "acetylsalicylic acid" because they are the generic names and are therefore cheaper than asking for Asprin™ (Bayer), which is more expensive. Enquire (talk) 22:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC) For--WP:COMMONNAME explicitly begins: "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication..." The naming convention we should be following here is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (chemistry)#Drug-related articles, which simply states: "Where a compound has a WHO International Nonproprietary Name (INN), this should be used as the article title." The INN is certainly not aspirin, I'll tell you that! I couldn't find official confirmation that the INN is acetylsalicylic acid, though. Could someone please find that?--Aervanath lives in greenthe Orphanage 17:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)I would oppose adding (ASA) after the name, though. A parenthetical is only necessary for disambiguation, which is not called for here.--Aervanath lives in greenthe Orphanage 17:35, 5 November 2008 (UTC)There is already a disambiguation page for ASA which links to the acetylsalicylic acid article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 17:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC) For There are many different drugs sold under the "Aspirin" name http://www.aspirin.com/products_en.html, and all of them including the "classic" aspirin contain more than just acetylsalicylic acid. Mieciu K (talk) 17:49, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Not a good idea. The rule at WP:NAME is
"Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."Less than 50 wikipedia pages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Acetylsalicylic_acid, compared to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Aspirin&amp;hidetrans=1&amp;limit=500&amp;hideredirs=1. The greatest number of English speakers would use the word aspirin, as does scientific and medical literature. Colin°Talk 18:01, 5 November 2008 (UTC)In more than 80 coutries, Aspirin™ is a trademark drug supplied exclusively by Bayer. In those countries, people would understand "Aspirin" as being a specific brand name of ASA (acetylsalicylic acid) Enquire (talk) 22:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)"Be precise when necessary; don't title articles ambiguously when the title has other meanings." (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision)). Aspirin is a brand name of a drug which has many substances in it, the most important being acetylsalicylic acid but aspirin is not the same as acetylsalicylic acid. Mieciu K (talk) 18:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Over 2 billion people world-wide claim English as their first or primary language. For the great majority of them, Asprin is a trademark drug supplied exclusively by Bayer. Very few of this majority would request "Asprin™" but would ask for the generic version, ASA or acetylsalicylic acid. Enquire (talk) 01:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Aspirin has no other medically active ingredients other than acetylsalicylic acid. All drugs contain other inactive substances (starch, etc). There is no ambiguity. BTW, Heroin is another example of a (former) Bayer trademark. Colin°Talk 18:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
It is true that many different drugs contain ASA (Aspirin), but that is not the same as saying that many different drugs are sold under the name "aspirin" Enquire (talk) 22:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, be precise when necessary. Aspirin is clear, concise and unambiguous. It has no other meanings (that it is a trademark in some countries is not another meaning - that aspect of it is covered in this article as well). No additional precision is necessary. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:26, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
No -- you contradict yourself, the title "Aspirin" IS ambiguous. In over 80 countries, "Aspirin" IS trademarked and so bottles labled "Aspirin" exclusively refer to the version of the drug manufactured by Bayer. In these countries, if you visit a pharmacy, the vast majority sold will be the generic version, these drugs will clearly be labled "ASA" (acetylsalicylic acid) and will not show the word "aspirin" anywhere on the label. Enquire (talk) 22:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Strong Oppose. For medicines that are not commonly known by the public at large I can see using the INN rather than whatever name might be used most commonly by the relatively few who do know about it (if they're different), but aspirin is clearly the name most often used by virtually everyone in the English speaking world to refer to the subject of this article, whether a trademark applies or not, there are no ambiguity issues, and more precision is not necessary (and therefore not appropriate). According to the article, even in countries where Aspirin is trademarked the generic/common name is not acetylsalicylic acid, but is ASA. So even if we were to ignore American usage and common usage, the title should be ASA (or ASA (acetylsalicylic acid) to disambiguate from other uses of ASA), but ignoring those other usages is not appropriate. In any case, renaming this article from the common name aspirin to the precise formal name acetylsalicylic acid would contradict the most fundamental of Wikipedia naming conventions, and would be a travesty of the spirit and culture of Wikipedia. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:19, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Your arguments appear in part to be contradictory. For those countries outside the UK and USA, this drug is popularly known as ASA. So I agree with you that acetylsalicylic acid is not the most popular name, but (outside of the USA and the UK), people DO know what ASA is, for the simple reason that the (generic) drugs are all clearly labled ASA. You can still of course, buy Aspirin™, but most know that this will be the more expensive version of ASA. Enquire (talk) 22:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Very strongly oppose Aspirin is the common English word for the substance; use of acetylsalicylic acid, except in the most technical of contexts, is a notorious instance of pedantic humour. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I presume you live in either the US or the UK? Elsewhere, Asprin is the trademarked (more expensive) version of the generic ASA or acetylsalicylic acid. In those countries the drug will be labled ASA, not Aspirin (unless it is made by Bayer). Enquire (talk) 22:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)In short, this is an effort to impose the alleged Canadian (or Australian?) usage on an article already written in a different national variety of English. We have strong consensus against that particular style of disruptive provincialism; leave it alone and learn to appreciate that there are many Englishes. In addition, http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/templates/hub?searchText=Aspirin&amp;searchVideo=false&amp;searchDateType=searchDatePreset&amp;searchDatePreset=all&amp;FromDay=01&amp;FromMonth=01&amp;FromYear=2000&amp;ToDay=05&amp;ToMonth=11&amp;ToYear=2008&amp;sort=Score%2Csortdate%2Csorttime&amp;hub=Search&amp;searchType=Advanced&amp;from_date=&amp;to_date=&amp;start_row=1&amp;current_row=1&amp;start_row_offset1=0 on the Globe and Mail suggests strongly that, however much Bayer might like to have aspirin used only for its own brand, this is not what Canadian actually does; Bayer have only succeeded in making the Globe and Mail capitalize as a house style. If I thought this nuisance deserved anything but reprobation, I would ask for evidence that either captialization or use as a brand name is actually prevalent even in Commonwealth dialects. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)I've added these citation to the passage you disputed in the article http://www.wordconstructions.com/articles/health/aspirin.html and http://www.inta.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=202&amp;Itemid=126&amp;getcontent=5. Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC) The first source here provides a quote: Aspirin is the general name for acetylsalicylic acid (ASA); it is also the trademark of the drug produced by Bayer in Germany. which destroys the case for the move. These also fail to substantiate the claim made in the article, which is both that the name aspirin is trademarked (which I see no reason to doubt) and that the name is in practice used only for the brand which holds the trademark, while ASA is used instead. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)The first citation which you quoted is from a web site from Australia where Aspirin lost its status as a registered trademark. According to http://books.google.com/books?id=PoFJ-OhE63UC&amp;pg=PA164&amp;lpg=PA164&amp;dq=aspirin+%2B+trademark+%2B+australia&amp;source=web&amp;ots=2Tjl6Bvt3f&amp;sig=4r53rmzMxVKww5MvJY_PkNd_GzQ&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;resnum=1&amp;ct=result, Aspirin lost its trademark status in Australia, Argentina, Britain, France, India, Ireland, Japan, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, South Africa and the United States. Aspirin is still a protected trademark in all other countries. Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:52, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Then can we follow the suggestion of Born2cycle and make the new name ASA (acetylsalicylic acid)? Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:57, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Please, no. I only brought up ASA to illustrate why acetylsalicylic acid is not an appropriate title. I did not suggest we make the new name ASA (acetylsalicylic acid). I said IF we were to IGNORE American usage and common usage then ASA rather than acetylsalicylic acid would be the right choice, but ignoring American usage and common usage is not a reasonable thing to do! ASA is virtually unheard of in America - to use it as the title of this article (disambiguated or not) instead of the universally recognized aspirin would be preposterous. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC) Oppose. Popular name is aspirin, not the INN moniker (whatever it is). Also, the "it's a trademark" reasoning falls flat in large parts of the English-speaking world. Madcynic (talk) 20:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Right. Just because a given title might not be absolutely perfect does not mean it must be changed, especially if all the alternative choices are far more blatantly out of step with naming policy, conventions and guidelines. In this case Aspirin has some minor issues because it is trademarked in some countries and so cannot be officially used to refer to the topic of this article. But it's still used informally in those countries with this meaning, and all of the alternative names are blatantly in violation of WP:UCN. Aspirin may not be ideal, but it is by far the best choice for the title of this article. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Comment I don't believe aspirin/acetylsalicylic acid has an INN. The closest to "confirmation" I can think of is the Anatomical Therapeutic Chemical Classification System, which uses acetylsalicylic acid. Fvasconcellos&amp;(t·c) 23:05, 5 November 2008 (UTC)From http://www.mhra.gov.uk/home/groups/es-cb/documents/committeedocument/con003180.pdf of a Medicines Commission meeting: "Retention of the use of the name “aspirin” (acetylsalicylic acid) had been raisedand, in discussion, the Commission agreed that this was not an issue. The name “aspirin”,which had been around since 1896 was a brand name in some countries and was a generic name in the UK. Acetylsalicylic acid was one of a number of compounds that does not require a rINN as this was its full chemical name" (emphasis mine). If there really is no assigned INN, Wikipedia:WikiProject Pharmacology/Style guide#Drug pages to use INN does not apply. Fvasconcellos&amp;(t·c) 23:13, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I oppose moving the article—as Steelbeard mentions, aspirin is no longer a trademark in "Australia, Argentina, Britain, France, India, Ireland, Japan, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, South Africa and the United States", that is, practically the entire English-speaking world. This is the English Wikipedia, and if aspirin does not have an International Nonproprietary Name, than WP:COMMONNAME is the only relevant guideline; it unquestionably favors aspirin. Fvasconcellos&amp;(t·c) 12:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)If you look at the article List of countries where English is an official language, you will see that English is the official language of 48 countries. I've counted nine English-speaking countries listed above where "aspirin" is a generic word. This means there are 39 English-speaking countries where Aspirin is still a registered trademark. Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Official language ≠ widely-spoken. Anyway, the trademark issue is a red-herring. Colin°Talk 17:45, 6 November 2008 (UTC) Oppose move to anything other than Aspirin, unless someone can come up with some valid reason for not considering it the common name. And having waded through the above, I don't see any yet. This may well be an exception to the detailed naming conventions, but it's an exceptional drug. Andrewa (talk) 09:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Andrew, I agree with what you said, except the reference to the "detailed naming conventions" threw me. What "detailed naming conventions"? The very concept sounds like it's in violation with use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.. --Born2cycle (talk) 14:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)And therefore naming this aspirin is an exception to the naming convention on chemical names, which conflicts here with the general convention on common names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Exactly. Let me be very pedantic, though, and note that naming conventions on drugs and those on chemicals don't conflict with WP:UCN, here or elsewhere: they are MOS exceptions as noted in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Exceptions. Fvasconcellos&amp;(t·c) 15:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Granted; if it weren't WP:BEANS. I might find the energy to give you a pedantry barnstar. :-&gt; Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:25, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose, Aspirin is the common name. older ≠ wiser 04:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Oppose Asprin is the most common name. Even if it was a trademark in most English speaking countries (which it isn't), I would say Oppose. Take Tater Tots for example, that is a trademarked name but is so common that most people call similar products tater tots. border: 2px Maroon solid;background:#4682B4;font-family: Monotype CorsivaMaroonTJ MaroonSpyke 17:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. color:redPlease do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</turn_topictext>
<turn_text>Not a good idea. The rule at WP:NAME is
"Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."</turn_text>