<article_title>Beer</article_title>
<edit_user>SilkTork</edit_user>
<edit_time>Monday, August 9, 2010 6:18:36 PM CEST</edit_time>
<edit_comment>one of the oldest</edit_comment>
<edit_text>Beer is the world's most widely consumed&lt;ref&gt;&lt;/ref&gt; and amongst the oldest&lt;ref&gt;&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;&lt;/ref&gt;&lt;ref&gt;&lt;/ref&gt;<strong> of</strong> alcoholic beverages; it is the third most popular drink overall, after water and tea.&lt;ref&gt;&lt;/ref&gt; It is produced by the brewing and fermentation of starches, mainly derived from cereal grains—most commonly malted barley, although wheat, maize (corn), and rice are widely used. Most beer is flavoured with hops, which add bitterness and act as a natural preservative, though other flavourings such as herbs or fruit may occasionally be included.</edit_text>
<turn_user>ClockworkSoul<turn_user>
<turn_time>Monday, August 9, 2010 10:01:58 PM CEST</turn_time>
<turn_topicname>It is doubtful that Beer is the world's oldest alcoholic beverage</turn_topicname>
<turn_topictext>This article begins with the statement that Beer is the world's oldest and most widely consumed alcoholic beverage. It is likely that mead (Honey Wine) was created accidentally and consumed, and then purposefully well before beer. font-size: smaller;autosigned—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.85.194.241 (talk) 01:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC) Never heard from the ancient greeks drinking wine? --62.93.99.121 (talk) 18:39, 9 July 2010 (UTC) In response to both questions: you're right that this is debatable, and the article should reflect that. However, while it's possible that the earliest fermented beverage was honey- or grape-based, the evidence does lean towards beer preceding both mead and wine. First, it's true that the earliest written references to beer date back more than 8000 years, and are among the earliest examples of written language anywhere, but that's pretty indirect evidence. Regarding grapes, the earliest solid evidence of wine-making dates to about 4500 BC, a millennium and a half after that of beer. For honey, the earliest actual chemical evidence from pottery in Europe is associated with the Beaker culture, dating to 4,000 years ago, give or take a few centuries. Also, as a brewer I can tell you that honey isn't an ideal fermentable: it's a natural bacteriostatic, and is mostly deficient in many of the nutrients necessary for yeast growth. A good gruel, on the other hand, if made from a grain that has begun to germinate, can be easily colonized by wild yeasts and/or bacteria and begin to ferment. Interestingly, though there's chemical evidence of both rice-beer and a rice-honey beverage (which today would be considered a braggot, a beer-mead hybrid) being brewed in China around 7000 BC. Honey is more fermentable when a nutrient source (like those found in rice or barley) is added, so this could suggest that once beer was invented/discovered, mead wasn't too far behind. That's pure speculation, of course. &amp; ClockworkSoul 22:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC) I just noticed the change in the opening. I've put it back to oldest, as that is what the source said. I just quickly added two more. I'll find an accessible scholarly source later, and replace all three with that. I have a vague memory of once before having several cites for that statement - though it may have been for something else. border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;Script MT#1111AA2SilkTork *YES! 17:30, 7 August 2010 (UTC) Hi Silk. The evidence puts beer up as a major contender for the title of "world's oldest beverage", but it's not definitive, since finding ancient beer vessels doesn't preclude the possibility that there may have been mead before it, and a source that says otherwise is coming to a conclusion that's not supported by the available information. So really, while the evidence is leaning in the direction of beer being oldest, we can't be sure unless we find a tablet that says something like "hey guys, I invented this thing called mead, and it's almost as good as beer". &amp; ClockworkSoul 22:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC) (post-signing after forgetting earlier) My searching has tended to be somewhat narrow - "beer oldest beverage" and such like, and my reading in the subject has also tended to be subject focused - I read books about beer, rather than books about mead or cider or wine, and come upon statements in these books that beer is the oldest. Having just done a search for "mead oldest beverage", I note that there are counter claims. So, unless we can find a super authoritative source which has examined all the claims, the opening statement does need adjusting. border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;Script MT#1111AA2SilkTork *YES! 18:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC) http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking_origins.html. I agree it does need further looking into, though I do happen upon statements like that as part of my beer reading, so I have come to feel that beer is the oldest alcoholic beverage. border: 1px #F10; background-color:cream;Script MT#1111AA2SilkTork *YES! 18:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC) I'm really a beer guy, and am pretty much the same in reading habits, but when replying to the OP I found a papers supporting both. Whichever beverage came first, though, it probably beat the other by a relatively short amount of time (but both almost certainly pre-date wine and other fermented beverages). The fact is that we can't say with any real certainty that beer was pre-dated mead, even if the practical issues I listed above make it more likely than not. I propose we re-add the "probably". &amp; ClockworkSoul 22:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC) I suggest you take out all references to "oldest alcoholic drink". There is no good evidence about what is the world's oldest alcoholic drink, and since both honey (when watered down, which happens naturally) and fruit will ferment naturally, while beer will NEVER occur naturally, it seems very unlikely humanity discovered beer before mead/wine. It certaoinly isn't possible to say beer is "probably" the oldest alcoholic drink. Those references offer no evidence other than claims. Zythophile (talk) 22:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC) (comment edited Zythophile (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2011 (UTC))</turn_topictext>
<turn_text>Hi Silk. The evidence puts beer up as a major contender for the title of "world's oldest beverage", but it's not definitive, since finding ancient beer vessels doesn't preclude the possibility that there may have been mead before it, and a source that says otherwise is coming to a conclusion that's not supported by the available information. So really, while the evidence is leaning in the direction of beer being oldest, we can't be sure unless we find a tablet that says something like "hey guys, I invented this thing called mead, and it's almost as good as beer". &amp; </turn_text>